From Actor to Mythologist: Bill Dow's Epic Journey Through Time

Show Intro Announcer: 00:00:00

Your voice is your superpower. Use it. Welcome to Ignite My Voice Becoming unstoppable. Powered by Ignite Voice, Inc. The podcast where voice meets purpose and stories ignite change.

Deep conversations with amazing guests, storytellers, speakers and change makers.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:00:21

When you think about it, everybody has the same questions all through history. It's like, where do I come from? What happens after I die? And how am I supposed to behave while I'm here? Right?

And then people make up stories to try to fill in those gaps.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:00:37

Today's guest has built a career most people could only dream about.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:42

A long, successful run as an actor with an incredible list of credits.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:00:46

But instead of stopping there, he decided to start a whole new chapter.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:50

He went back to school and earned, get this, a PhD in Greek mythology,.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:00:56

Which honestly feels like the coolest plot twist ever.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:59

It really does. Actor by trade, scholar by passion, storyteller through and through.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:01:05

We talk about how Greek mythology shaped.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:01:08

Modern theater, why stories still matter more than ever. Super casual, nothing intense at all.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:01:14

No.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:01:14

We chat about why places like theaters, art spaces and shared experiences might be exactly what we need.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:01:22

This conversation is thoughtful, it's surprising and full of wisdom.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:01:27

And Bill brings all of it with humor, warmth and perspective. This one will leave you thinking long after it ends. Here's Bill Dow. You know, Bill, I was telling Kevin, we looked at your IMDb. I never say that.

Right. IMDb. And I was like two full pages of so many. Okay, I have to put on my glasses, but Stargate, da Vinci, Supernatural, oh, my gosh, the list goes on.

One calls the Heart, the Man in the High Castle. Come on, bill. The Good Doctor Zombie, MacGyver, Highlander, the X Files, Contagion. Married to his.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:02:13

Little bit of a list there, huh?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:02:14

Yeah, I've been very fortunate. That's what I would say about that.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:02:19

That's all you gotta say. I've been very fortunate.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:02:22

Well, it was great, you know, I mean, I. Yeah, it's been.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:02:26

Been lucky, you know, as a Canadian actor too. Yeah, it's hard to stay employed like that. Wow.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:02:31

Yeah.

And for a while, because I was doing the X Files and they moved to LA, so I was going back and forth and working there and, you know, the opportunity came up to move there, but the boys were. I don't know, they were like seven or eight at the time. And I looked around, I went, no, I'm just stay in Vancouver and you.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:02:53

Could have become an American.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:02:54

You could be a child, you could be there, Right?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:02:57

Wouldn't that be good? Wouldn't that be good? Trying to get out.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:03:02

Well, you were wise. You made a wise decision.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:03:05

Yeah, no, and everything worked out, and it's good. I mean, there is a ceiling that is here that if you want to do more, you have to go somewhere else.

And I always thought I would go to London, actually.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:03:20

London, Ontario, or London, England. Just checking.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:03:23

Yes, London, England.

By the time that was possible, like when the boys were kind of grown up and moved out and stuff, then I'd kind of lost the drive to do that, and I was happy here. And by that time, I'd gone in, gone back to school, got the PhD.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:03:41

The PhD in Greek mythology, no less.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:03:46

Yes.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:03:47

Okay. Greek mythology, acting. Give me the leap there. What's that?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:03:53

It kind of came about. It's actually an interdisciplinary PhD in theater and Greek mythology.

So I was really interested in the origins of theater and where it started from and stuff like that. So that's what led me down to that.

And I mean, it basically boils down to Greek tragedy, but all the antecedents, you know, Homer and stuff like that, that came before the tragedians that their stories are all based on. That's where I got into. And so, yeah, it's lots of fun, but I just got bored, honestly.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:04:27

Of theater or acting?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:04:29

Acting and directing. And I just. I needed. And that's where the. That's where the ceiling thing felt like. I'd done whatever I could here. Like, I was at. I was at A level.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:04:41

Yeah, you've done whatever you could. I see the list. You did everything.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:04:45

And I just. I wanted to do something else. So I went back to school and I did a master's degree. And then it. It led into this. And it was. But it was a gain.

It was just something to fuel me. And so, yeah, it was good. Good.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:05:00

What's the background? Give us the background on Greek mythology, Greek tragedy, and the connection to theater.

Because, I mean, the Greeks had phenomenal theater built, which was far advanced of anything we could even do right now, today.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:05:18

Yeah, yeah. Well, so what happened was. I mean, there was a long oral trad.

You know, when you talk about the Iliad and the Odyssey, which are Homer, those come long before, about 400 years.

So if you think about Shakespeare now, that's about 400 years ago, and you see people doing modern adaptations of Shakespeare and, you know, making things up about Shakespeare. So when the Greeks were in the golden age of Athens, which is around 400.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:05:48

I love Athens.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:05:49

That's. And that was about 400 years since Homer. So they were taking those stories which were part of the kind of an overall consuming mythology.

And then they had this tradition of dances and choral odes, and they would do these performances which were tied in with religion and ritual and stuff like that.

And at some point, and they say it was Aeschylus who did this, he put somebody on stage with a mask, and so the chorus would be here and they'd be singing a song, and then this guy would have some lines, and they would have this back and forth. And then at some point he went, oh, we should have two. And then they had three. And that's where it came from.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:06:33

So it's the true root of theater right there. Is it?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:06:35

Yeah, yeah.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:06:36

Who's Aeschylus?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:06:37

Aeschylus is one of the tragedians. So there's three. There's Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides.

I mean, there was many more, but those are the only ones that we have plays that still exist. Okay, so this is the other thing. This is why it's interesting.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:06:51

Bill's getting started.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:06:54

We have unleashed the beast here.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:06:56

There's only 32 Greek tragedies fully extant. There's a lot of fragments and stuff, but there's only 32. So it's a limited field of knowledge, so you can kind of get to know it. Right.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:07:08

Wow, I didn't realize that.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:07:10

Yeah, no, it's incredible when you start thinking about it. And Euripides has 18, and Aeschylus and Sophocles have seven each. Like it's nothing.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:07:20

That's it. Yeah.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:07:21

Wow.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:07:22

Isn't that cool?

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:07:24

And what's fascinating is that so much of what happened back then informs what it is and who we are today, informing how we act, how we think and what's happening in theater. I find that so fascinating.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:07:40

Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, I mean, so when I was teaching mythology, when you think about it, everybody has the same questions all through history.

It's like, where do I come from? What happens after I die? And how am I supposed to behave while I'm here? Right.

And then people make up stories to try to fill in those gaps or to explain, you know, the thunder and the lightning. And, you know, we believe now in cold fronts and warm fronts and stuff like that. But how different is that from Zeus throwing a lightning bolt?

You know, it's something we believe in, and we learned how to measure stuff, but so did they. So we were still making up stories to explain the world to us and to try and figure it out, and that's what that was.

So, yeah, I think we're still in it.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:08:32

Well, mythology and storytelling go hand in hand, don't they? And Kevin and I often talk about storytelling as an art form and that's really where it started.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:08:41

Uh huh.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:08:42

Well, what struck me, listening to you there, Bill, was I read an article from a book that's been released recently. Talking. The author's talking about history and the mistake.

He was arguing that a lot of us do, and that is that we believe as we look back over time that people thought much like us, that we've carried, you know, we all have kids and we want to make their life better and we want to have homes and stuff, so we imagine they thought a lot like us.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:09:19

And what does he say?

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:09:20

He says, no.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:09:21

Okay, yeah.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:09:22

He says, oh, come on, it's really hard to get out of your current thinking and get back a thousand years or something where people would have interpreted everything very differently. Religion, for example, would mean something so much more than what it does to us.

A whole reason to exist or to die or kill that we can't even imagine. So why even try? It's like a different planet, was his argument.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:09:52

That's interesting. I mean, I think in the particulars, yes, but I think in a larger sense, I think it still is the same.

You can imagine having a religious faith and you know, it's. And you believe in something and you do. Like, I mean, they're happening right now, you know, people are dying because of religious belief.

So it's still going on. I think that, I think that the families, like, I think the relationships are largely the same.

I fall into that mistake if it is a mistake, because I think nothing much really changes, you know, I mean, the trappings change and we're not huddling in a cave trying to keep warm with a fire. But basically the same stuff.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:10:44

Yeah, I struggled with it too. And his point was that, well, you could justify a murder as obviously okay back then under certain circumstances.

And now we would just go, that's absolutely absurd. How can you possibly think like that?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:10:58

And yet we still do it. Yeah, well, and, and there's the idea of self defense. I was just reading a book about this the other day. It's like, okay, so murder is not justified.

You can't justify it. Except what if your family's, what if your home's being, what if you're being threatened?

And then if your home's being threatened, how big does that circle get? Like, what's the Venn diagram of who's myself? What is self protection? Does that include my family?

If somebody intruder at the door right now, do all of a sudden we become protect myself, you know, like, how does that umbrella get formed? And it's all this relative process. So I don't know. I mean, I think it's a tricky one.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:11:54

What can the Greeks tell us or what have they told us that can help us today? Because today we're inundated with social media and we feel like we're connected, but we're not. How would the Greeks have looked at that?

How would they have looked at our crazy society today?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:12:11

I don't know. I mean, I guess I was reading a thing the other day about talking about what's, you know, the difference between tragedy and comedy.

And you guys hear about storytelling, right? And so with social media, everybody trying to tell a story, and, you know, it's small.

And so tragedy is about large events, about significant passions and emotions, and comedy is about trivial things stubbing your toe or whatever. So the small events are comedy and that we live in a world that seems pretty deep into comedy right now. Like short term trivial. Everything's trivial.

Right. I think we need to somehow expand our vision. We need to get more into the big things, into the grander sweep of things.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:13:09

That's why we're here.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:13:10

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I suppose you would say it's obvious, but it's just striking me for the first time, tragedy is really context.

It's trying to put a lifetime in the context, isn't it, and reflect on it.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:13:25

I think so. And I think, I mean, like all. So to get to stories, you know, stories, everything starts with status quo. Right, Whatever.

But you have to establish it. So if I, you know, I'm going to say, okay, I was driving here today, there's the status quo. And then I list off all the things.

It was raining, I was talking to my son, I was having a premature baby. Like, all these kind of threats start impacting the story of me coming here, which is ultimately trivial.

But if I say, and then, you know, I had the slam on the brakes and somebody came in, all of a sudden, it can become tragedy in a second. Right. But it's. So you establish a status quo and then events happen to it. And so it's the sequence of events that make up a story. Right.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:14:15

That really hasn't changed much through the years, has it?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:14:19

No, no, not at all. I don't think so.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:14:21

And then I'm thinking about story structure, which we teach.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:14:25

Yeah.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:14:26

And I'm thinking how, as you said, each element that's happening is building the storyline, then we think about context and final conflict and some resolution or something. Right. And so I'm just putting all those things in place.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:14:43

Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I think. So for me, the narrative, the story, plot is the most important thing and that character is subsidiary to that.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:15:00

Interesting, because some people might think that.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:15:02

Was the other way around. And it's a tricky thing, but I think the way I explain it when I'm working on new plays or something like that.

So a story is essentially some kind of conflict. Like, you know, you started a status quo and then something happens to create conflict and then conflict precipitates action.

Once you're in conflict, something has to happen. And when you take an action that reveals your character.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:15:34

Right.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:15:35

So we know who you are by what you do well.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:15:38

And perhaps it changes. Yeah, we're looking for the change in the character.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:15:41

Absolutely. And so, yeah, my status quo, I'm nervous, I'm driving in the rain and then I get here and. And it's even.

I mean, it's also about re establishing status quo. So if you think of a tragedy like Oedipus, you know, he finds out, of course, the tragic circumstances of his father and such a classic.

He kills his dad and ends up marrying his mom, you know, it's quite fascinating, huh?

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:16:10

It happens every day, you know.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:16:12

Sounds Freudian, actually.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:16:14

Well, it is.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:16:15

It's prior to Freud.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:16:16

Yeah, but it's right in the play. He says, you know, we all dream about this. This is where Freud got this.

And Sophocles says, the guy comes up and he says we all dream about sleeping with our mother or something. And it's like, what, this has happened 400 BC.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:16:32

I never related Freud back to Greek tragedy.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:16:36

The first time it so informs. That's half of what we do.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:16:41

Well, mythology, right. It's so deep rooted, so long term.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:16:46

Wow. So then all that happens and he goes. Pokes his eyes out and then he's there and everything goes back to normal. Except the normal has changed.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:16:58

That's so interesting.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:17:00

Tell me more about that.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:17:01

Yeah, so, okay. So there. I don't know how far to go.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:17:05

There's a process you want Bill, we got done.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:17:09

Come on, Bill, you're having fun. Run with it, run with it.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:17:13

So he has this. He goes to the oracle. The oracle says, your destiny is that you're gonna sleep with your mother and murder your father.

And he goes, I think Katie Pitts would go, yeah. No, he goes, that's terrible. So I'm gonna leave town. So he goes to his mom and dad and says, listen, I gotta go. I can't tell you why, but I gotta go.

And so then he goes off and he's traveling. And as he's traveling down the road, this guy in some wagon comes by and runs him off the road. And he gets pissed off and he goes, what the hell?

And he goes and he goes. And he kills this guy inadvertently, but he kills him. And then he walks down the road to the town, and the town is being threatened by the Sphinx.

There's a horrible monster. And they say, you know, we need somebody to save us from the Sphinx. And he goes, oh, I can do that.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:18:06

I've already done that. I'm good.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:18:08

He goes, and he does. And it's the classic riddle. What? What? Walks on four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon and three legs in the evening.

And it's man, because you crawl and then you walk, and then you have a cane. And so he goes. And the Sphinx, he goes. He answers, man. And the Sphinx goes, oh, darn it. Damn.

And so then he has to leave the town, and everything's good. So then Oedipus walks into town, and they go, oh, you're a hero. You saved us. And as a prize, you get to marry the queen. And he goes, okay, great.

Love marrying queens. That's good. So as time goes on through the play, we find out that this had been his father and mother. And they had heard this prophecy about him.

So they gave the little baby to some shepherd.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:18:56

Oh, my goodness.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:18:58

And they said, take him over here and put him, you know, stake them to the ground over there and let the wolves eat them or whatever. And so the spirit, you know, the shepherd does that. And then some old guy's walking along, he finds him. He goes, oh, little baby.

When we couldn't have babies. So he takes it home to his wife. Look, we got a baby. And so they raise it up. So who he thought were his parents weren't his parents.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:19:19

It's all preordained.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:19:21

That's incredible.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:19:22

It's gonna happen anyway.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:19:24

Is it fate or is it preordained? Like what?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:19:28

So they believed in fate, the ancient Greeks, and. But they're trying to make sense of a chaotic world, right? They're going, how can. Because everything he did was good, right?

He didn't do anything wrong. He acted morally. He was upright, moral person, and he saved the village, and he did all.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:19:50

These things, and he worked against what he heard was his triumph.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:19:55

He was ethical, right?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:19:57

And it just comes home and so that, you know, like, so the story. And how do you get back to it? You go, like, I don't know. All these things happen, and I'm in this muddle. And then all of a sudden, I got you.

Okay, okay. I'm safe. I'm home and dry. And then stuff happens, and some guy turns up and goes, well, that was your dad and that's your mom.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:20:19

It's Star wars again. Right.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:20:23

But stories haven't really changed.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:20:25

I didn't want to cut you off.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:20:27

Yeah, that's good. But I.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:20:28

Because, like, Kat, my head starts to go, well, if all stories rooted somewhere way back, and it's really just kind of a recycling in different ways. Modern times, we haven't invented many different stories in some ways.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:20:46

Well, I don't know. I mean, everything is a wrinkle, right. Which is what we want. We want variety, we want novelty. We want stuff that happens, but at the same time.

So the brilliance of theater and why the ancient Greeks did this was because. So what we do as an audience, we go and we identify with the characters and we get to experience those feelings. So this. And this is.

Again, this is Aristotle. He goes. So the point of drama is catharsis, which. It means a cleansing of emotions. So you get to.

I mean, it's a much contested word, but the way I like to think of it is that it's a way to make the emotions useful, to exercise them. Because we all live in these kind of constrained worlds and we keep ourselves trapped down, you know, and when you go there.

And this is what I was thinking about our thing, because we're gonna talk about that. Okay. Okay. But you get, as an audience, you build up an identification and you go, this is. So you get this emotional sense, but it's not you.

But you experience it as if it is, which gives you this opportunity to feel that. So that when you go out into the real world another time, they're available to you, these emotions that you might need sometime.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:25

Yes.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:22:26

Or you've purged it in some way.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:22:28

Right. You've made it come up. Yeah.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:22:38

What's interesting is that you and I, in the play, we had an affair, and I never saw my character as a villain.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:22:47

Right.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:22:48

And I was surprised by the reaction of people after because a lot of them did not like my character and did not like your character in particular.

And it was really interesting to see that emotional, really highly emotional reaction to those two characters when I looked at it completely differently.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:23:11

Well, and I mean, think again. Think about Oedipus. You're doing this, the right thing all the time. You're acting decently and within a moral framework that's familiar.

You're taking the right action all the time.

But the people on the outside can have a different kind of judgment about it, and they can think about it, and they put themselves in your shoes or in the other character's shoes, and they think that's a betrayal. That's a huge betrayal. But I always loved what you said, which was that, you know, we're actually.

We're telling a positive story of these two people, that they're finding some kind of fulfillment.

They're coming to a place where they should be and not looking at the negative side, which is affecting another person, although not really, because, you know, the.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:24:04

Wife was released from a marriage she was deeply unhappy with but didn't recognize. And these two characters fell for each a really honest and meaningful way, unexpectedly.

They didn't purposely seek that out, and they didn't purposely do that to hurt someone. And human life is complex. And I think the Greeks really grappled with that complexity in a unique way that has really moved through the ages.

As we grapple with things contextually in.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:24:38

Modern day, I wish that we would deal with complexity at that level now. I fear that we have walked away from context and complexity, and we just want to interpret in such a simplistic way, like, you were a homebreaker.

You were evil.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:24:55

And that's how the response was from some audience members. And I was taken aback.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:25:00

Yeah. And wouldn't it be better if people could have a little bit more of a fragmented lens on things? Gray, little empathy there, maybe black and white.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:25:11

Yeah. But life isn't that simple, is it? And there's so much gray area.

And theater is a wonderful way to explore that without really hurting anybody, because it's presenting reality, but we're not in reality within that. So, yeah, the Greeks did that.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:25:30

Oh, it's a power theater. I'm just reliving a conversation we had with Jhana.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:25:37

So we had Jonna on. Jona was the director of our.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:25:40

A few days ago, another director. And we arrived at a place kind of similar in that we were talking about how to make the world a better place. We were talking about.

Well, humans have deeply embedded flaws. I mean, within our DNA, there's so many stupid things in there. We're gonna wipe ourselves out. It's just embedded.

Unless we can learn to open, overcome those flaws or pick up a tool that's not built in there. But we need to pick it up every generation because it's not there.

And we arrived in our discussion at theater being able to teach us, say, empathy, and we need to constantly learn it. And whenever a generation or a period of time passes that doesn't learn it, we're going to make the same mistake, right?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:26:30

Yeah. You keep getting dragged back in.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:26:33

And it's sad because the arts have been marginalized, they're not supported, and we are undermining some ability of younger people to relate to things. And I find theater is so creative in that, because it opens a door if you want to walk through it, but you reflect on it.

Each of us reflect on it differently. When you're in the audience.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:26:57

Yeah.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:26:58

And there's no downside to that, except it's not being funded. And that, I think, is the downside.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:05

There has to be a choice, though. And maybe as adults, we have a responsibility. Okay, forgive me, but I'm gonna make a leap here.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:27:11

Okay, go ahead, Kevin.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:13

I'm gonna leap to the Middle east, right?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:27:15

Yeah.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:16

I'm gonna go.

How often are we gonna repeat this error of jumping in and creating a false war in a difficult place in the world and just keep making the same mistake every decade? Look at that.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:27:33

No, it's crazy.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:27:34

Well, the Romans did it, too. I mean, other societies have done it, but we haven't learned, have we?

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:40

No. And because it's difficult to choose to watch this in theater or whatever.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:27:46

Right.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:47

It's hard to look at something that difficult, bring it into our lives. It's easy just to be privileged, isn't it? It's easy just to. I'll just float through my life. I can turn it on, take on that difficult stuff.

That is a choice.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:28:03

I can see your wheels turning. You're thinking.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:28:07

I am. I mean, I find it appalling what's going on, but I don't know. And I think it has to do with the deterioration of values. Like, what do you value?

What do we value? And somehow. Well, we know how. But through the process of capitalism, monetary value has become the only thing that counts as a value these days.

Whereas. So, you know, I don't know. I don't want to get into the whole Middle east thing because it's so fractious. Identity.

People get into tribes or teams or bands, and they identify. Right. So, like, I have to say, I'm a CIS white male, you know, whatever. That's my identity these days. But it isn't. That's a category, a label.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:29:04

You're more than that a label.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:29:06

And I heard this guy was fantastic the other day. And he said if you pick up the picture from your grade three class, you can see yourself.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:29:18

Yes.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:29:19

And people who know you can find you too. That's who you are, that's your identity.

It's not all these other things, these labels that, you know, that people are using to slot you into something. Well, and to create division between me and the other guys. And I mean any war is about that.

Like Israel's fighting Iran because whatever, and the Americans, God knows what's going on there. But it's because we're not dealing on a personal level. We're not really dealing with identity.

And so when the young people these days are talking about identity, they're trying to build a protective little cohort that they can fit in, but they're not dealing with really who you are.

And I think somehow there's a global like, you know, any astronaut comes, goes up there and he sees the earth and they go, oh, we're all on one little spaceship and we're just floating through the. And they come back and they have that holistic sense, the observer effect.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:30:22

I wrote about that in my book.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:30:23

Oh, is that right? I did, yeah.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:25

I was having a conversation with my brother last night who has been a historian of different things in. And what we arrived at was one of the major flaws in human is tribalism.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:30:43

And I think this is it and it's huge. It is. And how can we break that down? How can we get to the individual?

Because I think if you have anybody, even sworn enemies like the old feuds and the whatever they were, when you sit down and you talk to somebody, if you can get there, chances are you can still disagree. You don't have to agree on things, but oh yeah, you're just somebody.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:31:14

And we can relate on a level. You might have a family and we all love our children, we all love our parents.

Presumably we all have a need as Maslow's hierarchy for safety and security and self actualization. So we're not all that different. But we come at things from a very different perspective.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:31:35

Right.

And so when you get something thrown into the mix like religious fanaticism, these guys are trying to start Armageddon because they had some misreading of the book of Revelations.

Hegsef, that guy, he's got his Christian national thing and he's trying to provoke the Middle east war that will spark off Armageddon, which is not really what was going on anyway. But they've got this fanaticism and it's a fixed idea of what's next? And I mean, Iran, that's a theocracy as well.

It's like they've got kind of very strict ideas about women and everything else. And it's like holding on to something. And I guess it's the reason we do that is because we're fearful.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:32:26

I was gonna say afraid, but afraid of what?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:32:32

The chaos of the world. And the world is chaos. Like we want to control things because we don't. I don't know, we're afraid of ourselves, afraid of our responses to things.

I don't know.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:32:42

Afraid of change. Yeah, because I guess we have our tribe that we want to protect and maintain. Status quo. Status quo.

And anything that is going to shift, that is a danger.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:32:55

But everything changes anyways. From the time you were born to the time you die, there is change all around you. Your cells change. How are we not embracing change?

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:33:05

Well, we do the opposite, don't we? We fight it every step of the way. Again, one of the human flaws. And it's about control. Maybe too.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:33:14

Well, it's fascinating. I mean, control comes from fear. It's trying to alleviate that fear, that anxiety.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:33:22

We're all gonna die. We can't control that. We're going to that place. So Kevin and I often talk about embracing death, embracing that fear.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:33:31

I think you have to.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:33:32

Well, it's a great teacher, but we can choose to avoid it until that day when we can't.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:33:38

Yeah, yeah. And, yeah. I mean, I don't know if I told you this, but I decided our young friend who was in the show, Ella Cannon, right?

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:33:52

Lovely lady.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:33:53

Lovely lady. And she was asking. She was asking about, you know, why something wasn't working or something, and she said, will you listen to it? I say, yeah.

So, you know, the next day, and she'd had a great show and had a lot of friends there, and everybody laughed. And I said, well, I guess you don't need to know. She said, no, I still need to know. And I said, okay, here's what I thought.

I thought this whole play is about the fear of dying alone and that everybody is trying to deal with that fear. And so I thought, it's really interesting that that's a fear that we have. And again, it's the unknown.

Because that's the other thing that we don't know. Right. Where do I come from? How am I supposed to behave while I'm here? What happens after I die? And is there a soul?

Is there something that's immortal? Is there something that goes forward? I don't know. Nobody does. But so many theories, so many theories.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:34:58

I guess that is the ultimate fear, isn't it? I don't want to die. That is almost the top of the list, isn't it?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:35:08

I think so. Ultimately,.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:35:11

The second is public speaking.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:35:15

That's true. That's what we teach.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:35:17

That's why we're here.

If you can get over the first fear, the fear of death, then it really opens you up to being honest and expressive and not being afraid of standing up in public or expressing, giving your opinion, connecting with someone else.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:35:33

That's a kind of a death of personality. If you're afraid of being ridiculed or making yourself foolish, which is a kind of a death of self, I guess.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:35:43

I call that the ego Persona. And that puts up a mask so that people don't see your vulnerabilities.

And it's in the vulnerabilities is where we actually connect, where we actually have a concept of each other as imperfect. And accepting of that is actually critical in connection, I think.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:36:06

Yeah, no, I think so.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:36:08

Well, I also hear something about individualism there. I hear connecting to the cosmos that we all belong to and how difficult that is.

And in our world now, that seems to have gone so mad in terms of individualism, capitalism, profit. We move against that model of continuity and community, don't we? It leaves us lost.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:36:33

And how do we create a greater sense of community and equality and everybody in. So these stories that people make up, they make up to kind of give a form to real life.

Like I'm sure people have been jealous and had this kind of thing happen and that kind of thing happen. And we've all, I imagine, experienced it, I know I have.

And so somebody makes up a story and you can identify with it, you can go, okay, I get that, I understand that. But they give it a form and that's why we need writers or poets or whatever, to give form to stuff and to make it musicians. Musicians, absolutely.

To make it a thing, you know, or podcasters and open a door to.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:37:29

Something that you may not have thought of. And so that door opens up through creativity rather than a logical A plus B equals C. You come to a conclusion yourself.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:37:40

Is it titillation or is it learning? Is it entertainment or is it wisdom?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:37:48

I'm titillated by learning.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:37:50

It's a double edged sword. Well, interestingly, we're all professors. So when you present some of this information to class, how do your students respond? The younger generation?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:38:01

If I do it well, they like it. So the beginning of the odyssey is telemachus is at home. So the trojan war took 10 years, and then they left. And Odysseus took 10 years to get home.

So this is how I start. So this is his son who was just born when he left. So this son is 20 years old. He's 19 or 20 years old. How old are all you guys?

So this is you, and you're living and your mom. You've never met your dad.

You're living with your mom in some house, and then all these guys move into the basement because they want to marry your mom. And they're eating all your food and drinking all your wine.

And just for the sake of it, let's say they're a bunch of hell's angels because they're not nice people. And they just take stuff and take stuff and take stuff, and that's where that story starts. So if I can find the context, then they come along.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:39:07

Interesting.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:39:08

It's a long history. I mean, the Iliad or. Or any of this writing. Remind me, what was the exact time? What was that era?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:39:14

Well, around 700 B.C.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:39:18

That's a long time ago.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:39:19

That's a long time ago, and not much has changed.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:39:23

In many ways, it's so great to go back to Athens and see the Acropolis and the Parthenon and to go to the amphitheaters and to feel what it must have been like. I always put myself. I want to put myself back into those times. I'm always fascinated to go back and back in time.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:39:45

There's a cool book. There's some interesting books. There's a book called Circe. I think it's Melanie Miller who wrote it. But what's happening now?

Like Margaret Atwood with the Penelope ad They're taking some of these stories, women, particularly women authors, and telling them from a different angle, because these stories, of course, are all patriarchal and center, the male and all that kind of stuff. So there's modern writers who are taking some of these stories and starting to tell them from different angles.

And mostly the female angle, which is really, really interesting. And just for that, for putting you back into Athens, Circe.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:40:23

That's okay. I'll have a look at that. It's all about storytelling.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:40:27

Well, and I'm thinking we're all old farts gathered around the table.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:40:33

Speak for yourself, Kevin.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:40:36

I identify as an old fart.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:40:37

I'm not a fart.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:40:39

Here I am thinking maybe old, but.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:40:41

I'm not a fart.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:40:42

You know, I think I have a big final question for you, Bill. Can I formulate It. Well, you embody context in over a couple thousand years.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:40:59

So not that you're that old. I mean, you're not a thousand years old.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:41:03

But, you know, Bill's looking back 3,000 years, you know, and tracing the root of story in a fascinating way. What's the future of humanity, Bill, in that analysis you've done for so long, the repetition, the fate of that, we can't stop.

Is there a change in our human future or are we destined to just do this cycle forever?

Guest Bill Dow: 00:41:36

Do you see anything?

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:41:39

What am I asking? Is there hope? As our war machine gets more efficient at wiping out the entire planet, it looks like we're kind of going down a dark path, Bill.

Give me hope.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:41:52

Well, I think we've been going down a dark path a lot of times, and we always seem to get out. So that's the hope. There is. I think I just saw a thing. There's some AI generated actress now. Have you seen that?

There's a video of her and she's got a. It. I shouldn't say she. It has a song and there's a music video. But the disclaimer at the Beginning, it says, 18 real humans made this video.

And I go, but it's really hard to distinguish it from a person. But I think personal connection is the hope. I think as we were talking about before, trying to find that individual connection and trying to.

Even if you're dealing with smaller groups of people. But I think that human one to one connection, that's the secret sauce for me.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:42:56

I just want to give you all a hug. But that's what we say. We talk about one to one connection all the time.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:43:02

It is.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:43:04

Some of those are root ideas. We agree. And I'm just thinking too, that's the counter to tribalism.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:43:12

Yeah, it is. I think so. I think so. I mean, it's tricky because we've lost a lot of the structures.

So when we talk about trying to create a more equal and a more communal situation, part of the problem is this great divide that's happening, right? An economic divide, as well as different kinds of divides.

But we've lost the structures that would bring people from different zones together, you know, like even public transit. If you think about, like, it's hard to take the bus because. Or the Skytrain because you get confronted with things that you don't want to see.

So you insulate yourself, which makes sense from a personal point of view. And again, it's fear. Right?

But if we do that, if we continue to insulate ourselves and shrink down we don't get an opportunity to meet other people, to find the others. Find the others.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:44:19

We lose the richness of life.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:44:22

And I mean, that's Habermas. That's public sphere. As we pull and eliminate public sphere.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:44:28

Well, that's the trick, isn't it? I don't know how we get it back, but I think you have to get it back on a small scale first. And that's where I think there is some hope for theater.

For a long time I wasn't sure that there was, but I feel like there is now.

But, yeah, you've got to find that meeting place, that public sphere is a great phrase, and find a way to rub against people so that you find out, okay, I don't have to agree, but I can still exist in the same space and find a way to respect everybody and, and to treat everybody decently.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:45:08

And then connection tools come to mind. Emotional regulation. There are some things we need in order to not kill each other in that public sphere.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:45:20

And sometimes people need to be taught that because they don't know how to do that.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:45:25

I think they do. And I think that one of the crises right now is young men, because they're all going into their basements and playing video games or whatever.

I mean, I know it's a huge generalization.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:45:36

Yeah.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:45:37

But, but, but it, we're.

And again, it's isolating and we're not giving people an opportunity to find a way out of that and, and devaluing certain kinds of work, which is just, you know, it really works against the project, the. The project of greater humanity and, and of trying to get everybody forward, you.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:45:57

Know, well, built into our DNA. We are social animals.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:46:00

Yeah.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:46:02

And we get sick when we isolate.

Guest Bill Dow: 00:46:07

And somehow we've created a culture where that's what's going on.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:46:12

What a conversation that was, huh? A reminder that reinvention is always possible no matter where you are in life.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:46:19

And that stories are a lot more than entertainment. They help us understand who we are. They help us process fear, loss, change.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:46:29

And connection and maybe even bring us back together when life feels divided. If something this episode resonated within you,.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:46:37

Share it with the thinker in your life, the artist in your life, or the person asking big questions right now. And we have more great conversations coming up.

Co-Host Kevin Ribble: 00:46:47

Thank you. To those of you listening in our global community, we'd love to invite you to our exclusive retreat in Mexico out in December.

Just keep an eye out for details.

Co-Host Kat Stewart: 00:46:55

Ignitemyvoice. Com.

Show Intro Announcer: 00:47:00

Ignite my voice Becoming unstoppable. Your voice is your superpower.

Show Intro Announcer: 00:47:07

Use it.