Unraveling the Cloak of Shame: Understanding Our Emotional Binds

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Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:00:20

It's so uncomfortable. It's like, well, whoever told you that life was gonna be easy?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:26

Shame isn't just a feeling. It's a full body experience. It gets under your skin, into muscles, takes up space in your mind.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:00:34

And unlike guilt, which says I did something wrong, shame goes deeper. It says I am something wrong. It floods you, it overwhelms you, and often you don't even know it's there.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:50

Maybe it started in childhood. Punishment based discipline. Being told to behave, not feel, shame on you.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:00:58

It's not just a phrase, it's a cloak. And most of us are still wearing it, right?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:01:02

But here's the truth. Shame is a belief, not a fact. And beliefs can change.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:01:08

Today we're chatting with Barb Rogers, a registered clinical counselor with a master's in counseling psychology and a gift for helping people untangle the emotional knots they've been carrying for years.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:01:21

Barb brings clarity, insight, and non judgmental presence that helps us explore the roots of our shame and rebuild our resilience from the inside out.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:01:32

We talk about attachment, mistaken beliefs, and what happens when your sense of self worth finally comes home to you.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:01:40

Because when you feel worthy, I mean really worthy, mistakes don't wreck you. They just become part of your human.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:01:47

Story and you begin to show up as someone who belongs because you do.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:01:54

It is one of those emotions that really does overwhelm you. Yeah. So people who. And it can be triggered at any time.

So sometimes, you know, people can kind of function at a pretty good level for a certain amount of time and then something happens and the shame gets triggered and it floods them. Yeah, it's overwhelming.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:02:18

Is it just me or I've carried a lot of shame in my life.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:02:22

It's not just me.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:02:23

It's not just you, Kev.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:02:24

Is everybody like that?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:02:26

I think a lot of people are. I think. I wonder if I could say that most people carry some shame, but I think it really depends on it. Depends on how you grew up. A lot of it.

Parenting styles and, you know, a lot of our parents, the generation of their parenting was punishment based discipline. Shame based discipline.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:02:52

Children should be seen, not heard.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:02:54

Children should be seen and not heard. Shame on you.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:02:58

Do as I say, not as I do.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:02:59

Yeah, all of those things.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:03:00

Shame on you.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:03:01

Look at that.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:03:03

Oh, that's so Brutal. Shame on you.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:03:05

And it's like a cloak. You just put it on and you wear it. And you don't know that you're wearing it because it becomes a part of you.

So it impacts everything that you do, all of your relationships.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:03:17

And it's interesting to think about the person that's saying that. Right. Because they're just trying to shut you down, aren't they? Shame on you.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:03:25

And it's probably something they heard their parents say. They probably. You know, I think a lot of times people aren't even conscious of what they're saying.

They really thought about the meaning of what you're saying when you say something like that to a child. But I think that it's true. Like, a lot of.

I think a lot of these beliefs that we carry, these mistaken beliefs, are rooted in childhood and in our development. And it's not just about. It's not necessarily based in truth, but our perception of the truth.

But I think a lot of times, you know, the way we were parented is our parents are doing. They have good intentions. They want us to, you know, be good in the world, good people in the world.

But the focus is so often on how we behave and not how we feel. And so I think that those. There's some shifts in parenting now where we're trying to focus more on what's going on emotionally for kids.

But I think you're right. Kids are to be seen and not heard. What you feel, your opinion does not matter. It just doesn't matter. It's how you behave. It's not.

If you're feeling upset at Aunt so and so's house, we're gonna deal with that. It's. You're being rude and misbehaving and you're gonna get in trouble.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:04:48

And in a way, the behavior is affecting the way that parent is processing and is perceived by others.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:04:58

I've got a good example of that.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:04:59

Okay.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:05:01

I must have been maybe six. My mom's best friend came over to the house, and she had two young kids who were my age.

And we played together so well, and we were having a great time. I remember this so very clearly.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:05:14

And that was a few years ago. Okay.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:05:16

Just saying. And I didn't want them to go. So the way I reacted was I was sad, so I cried.

And my mother was humiliated and was very angry at me for crying and causing what was classified as a scene. Yes. So I was made to phone my mom's friend and apologize for my behavior.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:05:41

No.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:05:43

How dare you be sad.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:05:45

And what did that do to me following? I learned to shut my emotions off.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:05:50

Exactly.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:05:51

To have the face of the good girl, the polite girl, and that carried forward into all of my relationships. I held back my feelings. And what that did was it created inauthenticity. And then I had. I was superficial and I didn't have connection. So you go back.

You go back to shame, and that leads to inauthenticity and lack of connection. That's terribly sad and powerful, but it took a long time for me to unravel that part of my life.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:06:25

Yes.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:06:27

And here I sit.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:06:28

Yeah.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:06:28

Shame is brutal, isn't it? It has enormous impact.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:06:31

It does have enormous impact.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:06:32

What is it about shame that has such impact on how we grow through the world and carry that with us?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:06:41

Well, if you look at the mistaken belief or the limiting belief behind shame, it's that I'm not enough or not even. I'm not enough. I'm bad. Not even I do bad things. I am bad.

And so when you're going out into the world with the limiting belief that you're bad, that is gonna color your perception. If you're somebody who generally feels worthy and it's okay to make mistakes, we all make mistakes. You can. You're going to be more resilient.

You're going to bounce back from mistakes. It's just a mistake. I can learn from it. I can. I can make amends if I need to, but it doesn't change my value as a person.

But if you're bad, if you're just a bad person, you're not going to bounce back. You're not going to have that resiliency. Where's the comeback from I'm a bad person. How do you change that?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:07:42

And I guess shame proves it, right? It proves my fear.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:07:48

That's kind of interesting and I think true. The feeling of shame feels so awful. If you don't identify that as shame, you internalize it. You internalize it. That's just.

I feel like this because I am a bad person. Right. You don't have any separation from the two.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:08:05

And that is so. That hurts. When you tell yourself you're a bad person, you're hurting yourself.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:08:15

Oh, yeah. And any mistake, it just. Any little mistake that you make is just validating that for you. See, I am a bad person. I do bad things. I'm a bad person.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:08:26

I'm not worthy.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:08:27

I'm not worthy.

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Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:08:46

I think the problem is that just kind of going back to the connection to shame is the limiting belief that's attached to shame is I'm bad. So if you recognize that that is just a belief that it's not actually true.

So a lot of people maybe don't have the experience or, you know, a teacher to teach them that it's just a limiting belief that you're bad, it's not actually true. So if you learn, if you learn to be a certain way or you learn things about yourself, you can unlearn them, you can learn to be different. Yeah.

So based on either reality or your perception of reality, you've developed this belief that you are bad, you're unworthy. If that's just a belief that's not true, you're not actually attached to that, you can change it.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:09:41

How do you unravel that for someone?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:09:44

Well, that's where I would start. I would start with that.

I'd start with the realization that what's really going on, what's creating the emotion, the shame, is the belief, limiting belief. Well, where does that belief come from? How does one person come to believe that they're unworthy and another person is fine.

And when does that happen?

Because if you were to go into the nursery in a hospital and there's four babies that were just born, could you say that one of them had any more value than the other? No.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:10:18

No.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:10:18

They're just little human beings. They're all of equal value. So why is it that 10 years or 15 years or 20 years, one of them might feel one way and another one might feel another.

It's based on their experience, it's based on what they've learned. And that is not necessarily true.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:10:39

And maybe those little moments of trauma along the way there somewhere embedded some deep things, right?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:10:48

Yeah. Trauma can be a really significant source of shame. And a lot of that.

If you look at the way kids brains work, if you understand how kids brains work developmentally, kids are very self centered. So it always has to be about them. So mom and dad are divorcing.

Of course it had to have something to do with them because they're the center of the universe. Has to. But more than that, if you look at biology, so as mammals we are, we have a innate drive to attach.

We have to attach to our parents for survival. And that's a very strong drive. And so if you're being say abused or neglected by that parent that would make them not safe to attach to.

But you have to attach to them because you need them for survival. That's a survival instinct. So in the magical thinking of kids, they will, they will resolve that dilemma 100% of the time by reversing the badness.

I'm bad. Mom and dad are fine. Or mum or dad. They're fine. It's me that's the problem. And so that makes, that makes it safe to attach to the parents.

But it's, it creates, it starts this belief that they're bad. And the other thing it gives a child. Oh, I know it makes me feel, it's very sad.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:12:27

Oh. And you know what my story is that? My story is my mother had an addiction to prescription drugs when I was a little kid, did inappropriate things.

And my interpretation is the kid was I'm not behaving well enough. I'm not good enough. So I as a little kid would clean the house. Isn't that weird just to try and make it better somehow?

Cause I guess I thought it was my fault, right?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:12:56

Yes. Part of it is you're trying to be better. Some of it is managing.

Like if you've got a parent who's volatile or drug addicted or something, you're gonna try to manage your environment. So maybe doing the dishes will. Mom won't blow up.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:13:11

Yes.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:13:12

So part of it is that. But part of it is yes, how can I be better? How can I be more than I am? So that mom will accept me, so that mom will look after me.

Mom will be emotionally available to me.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:13:23

Creating that perceived safety.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:13:26

It's a perceived safety and it also gives a child hope and control is if the parent is bad, there's no escape from that. You're four years old and you move into an apartment in downtown Vancouver. You're stuck.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:13:41

I got a fire. Mom, you're fired.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:13:44

So the thought of at that age, we can look back now, 10 years doesn't seem that long. But when you're a kid, it's forever. So I'm stuck in this till I'm 18. That's unbearable.

So if the problem is actually not the parent but you, there's hope that you can somehow resolve that.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:14:02

Oh, that's true.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:14:03

And that gives you. You're out. That gives you your okay. If I can only figure out what it is that I'm doing or being that's so bad, I can change this.

I can change this situation. It'll change. In fact, that's an illusion.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:14:18

And don't we become then rigid okay, then I have to be perfect for mom and dad to keep the tensions down and the household safe. And then you become rigid in your own behaviors later on in life.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:14:33

Absolutely. That could be a very legitimate source of rigidity.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:14:38

Oh, and I suspect you turn outward to try to control. In some ways, I put up a radar. Cause I want to control my environment as much as I possibly can.

And I'm looking for signals that might go, ooh, stuff is gonna go out of control.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:14:56

Absolutely. You are very externally tuned in. You're more tuned into what other people in the room need as opposed to yourself.

And over time, you really lose that connection with yourself. What do you need? What are your needs? What do you want? It doesn't really matter, does it? It's what everyone else needs to protect yourself.

That's right. As a defense mechanism.

But then if you're not looking after your needs, you're not looking after yourself, you're not taking a deep breath, you're not doing what you need, then you continue to. You're not somebody worthy of looking after everyone else is more important.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:15:41

And then that leads to resentment and anger and bitterness.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:15:47

Absolutely, it can.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:15:49

And those are toxic as well. And doesn't that. It all goes back to shame. You can just see the path, the travel, you know, that leads right back to your childhood.

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Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:16:20

The way I like to do that is to explain to people that the way we are is how we've become. You aren't born a certain way. I mean, there's nature, there's nurture, and there's the unique interpretation we all make of those things.

But we get to be the way we are based on a lot of things that are out of our. And so we find ourselves at some point in our lives in a place we maybe don't want to be or feeling a way we don't want to feel.

And so it's just taking stock and looking at what's working for me and what isn't. And how did I get to see the world this way? How did I get to why am I feeling this way? Why am I triggered by this or that?

And so it can be a little intimidating, the process. And.

And you get to a point where you can just say, oh my gosh, I did do that, or I am like that as opposed to this shame that overwhelms you and paralyzes you. You get to a point where you can just kind of own it. My bad. I am like that.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:17:21

You talked about accountability. Accountability is about looking at yourself and accepting yourself for who you are. There's a lot of fear around that, though.

Like to open up that box. Where do you sit on that fear realm as you're looking at yourself? How do you help people with that.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:17:40

The fear of self discovery?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:17:43

Well, because another way to put it might be, you know, in a way, our story, our personal narrative is a bit of a house of cards. Right. We construct what we think is an accurate perception of life and the world. And that might.

The therapy or the process of thinking about that might start to pull some cards out of that house of cards. And there's that fear, isn't it, that.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:18:11

Oh my goodness, it collapses from that perspective. It's probably good to not start right in the.

Maybe not start right in the thick of things, maybe start building some centering skills, some grounding skills. And then just so you. If the house of cards is going to fall, you need some kind of foundation there.

So there's ways that people can learn to be more resilient or ways they can ride that wave or manage those emotions that are going to get them through that. You wouldn't want to pull the bottom card out on the first day. Yeah.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:18:54

Just thinking about my own self and looking at my marriage, I was completely unhappy in my marriage, but I didn't want to face that because I would have to pull out the cards and then that would fall and where would I go? What would I do? Who would I be?

I've made these mistakes and I'm alone and my safety net goes and I won't have a house and my poor children, what's going to happen?

But ultimately, if you stay there where you're unhappy, your life doesn't take you to that beautiful place where you can be who you really are and expressive. And we often talk about being charismatic, which comes from that ability to be authentic.

So when you've got that house of cards surrounding you and you're not authentic.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:19:48

That actually brings up quite a few good points. There's sort of a continuum of emotions. So the fear of change in your case was worse.

Greater than the fear of staying in an unhappy relationship or an unhappy situation might be different types of fear.

But what you're trying to do then if somebody wants to make a big change like that and they're not there, we just want to Sort of start increasing the window of tolerance for fear. The fear of what? The fear of the unknown. Well, what's the worst thing that can happen? Can you just sit in that for a minute?

Can you sit with that feeling for a minute if it's so overwhelming you can't even think about it, it's probably not gonna happen. But if you build your. Increase your window of tolerance for some of these negative emotions, and I think just accept that that's part of life.

We talked about parenting and the parenting of maybe 60 years ago, where it was maybe more punishment based or shame based. And I think in many ways, parenting has swung too far the other way. And parents are trying to protect their kids from feeling.

Feeling anything negative. Oh, it's okay to feel. You want to feel positive emotions, but we're trying to protect our kids from feeling negative emotions.

And then they don't have any tolerance for negative emotion. For fear. For life is full of fear. Life is full of adversity. Life is full of, you know, suffering, for that matter. We can't avoid it.

It's not unavoidable. It's not something you want to. You. Actually, I don't think you do want to protect your kids from that because they have. Absolutely.

That's exactly right. And then they have no tolerance for that.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:21:43

No resilience.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:21:44

No resilience. It's so uncomfortable. It's like, well, whoever told you that life was gonna be easy?

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:21:51

My oldest son says it to me all the time. You never told me that life was gonna be this hard, mom.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:21:55

Right. You never warned me.

Yeah, but even the, you know, a child comes home from school and they're upset that something happened at school, and it's like, oh, it'll be fine.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:06

Don't worry.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:22:06

Don't worry. Let's go get some ice cream. And it's like, how about, you know what? That really sucks.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:12

How about sitting with it?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:22:13

Right? Let's just sit with it. I'll sit here with you in it.

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Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:22:36

There's enough violence and aggression in the world without us bringing more to it. So if all we do is bring kindness and compassion to the world, we've made the world a better place.

So if you just show up in the world with kindness and compassion, you're changing the world for the Better. And we can't change the world. We can't eradicate poverty. But we can be kind to our neighbor. We can be kind to someone in the store.

We can let them go ahead of us. We can have be empathetic with somebody who's upset or angry. And, you know, I think that's where we start.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:23:13

It's back to those simple little moments of action that we actually have control over.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:23:21

We do have control over that.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:23:23

My father was one of those drivers who is like, I'm not gonna let that guy in. And look, that guy, he cut me off. And so guess what? I learned how to drive.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:23:31

You know, I thought, oh, traffic.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:23:33

I was like, oh, I'm not gonna let that guy in.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:23:35

Yeah. With some colorful language. Yeah, maybe a tad.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:23:39

But now I let the person in, somebody lets me in, I wave. Do you know that changes my day?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:23:45

It totally does. Yeah, it totally does.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:23:49

Simple little thing to do.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:23:50

Yes. I find that never ceases to amaze me how that shifts, how you feel.

You're driving along, you're all pissy, traffic's bad, someone's cutting in front of you, You've got dropping F bombs.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:24:05

Oh, the world's a dark place. And look at that. Everybody's screwed.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:24:08

Stress, the weather sucks, you know, and you're. Nothing's good. Nothing's good in that.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:24:15

And you get to work like that. And you get home to your kids.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:24:17

Like that exactly the same time. That's right.

You get to work at exactly the same time that you would have if you had just taken a breath, accepted that traffic is bad, the weather is bad. And I think I'm just going to let this person in front of me because no big deal. Kind thing to do.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:24:33

And they wave thank you. And they wave thank you. And you feel kind of good, don't you?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:24:37

And they wave in a way that's just extra specially sweet.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:24:40

And.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:24:41

Yes. And it's like, oh, my God, that just made my day.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:24:44

I was in the store the other day with my grandchild, and we were looking at something. This woman looked over to me, she goes, oh, I love your hair. And I said, thank you.

And she looked at me, she goes, oh, my goodness, you have beautiful eyes. And I said, oh, thank you. I said, could you follow me around all day and just tell me those things? You know what she said to me?

She said, you can do that on your own. You don't need me to tell you that.

And I walked away from that interaction thinking that if we all just said more kindness to ourselves as well, yes, but that moment of kindness from a stranger left me feeling so wonderful. And then thinking about, you know, that I can actually give that to myself as well.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:25:26

Well, yes, and I think that is such a good point because we're always even just in this conversation, we're focused on. We're focusing a lot on what we do for other people, what we take out into the world, our kindness and compassion. Maybe.

Maybe I can backtrack on that a little bit. And maybe we need to start with ourselves and be kind and compassionate to ourselves.

Because if you're feeling good about who you are, and it does make you feel good about who you are, then you go out in the world. You take that out into the world. So I've thought about that often about ending up at the pearly gates, and St. Peter says, what have you done?

What have you done in your life for other people? And I said, what if. That's not the question. What if you get there and the question is, what have you done for yourself?

How did you look after yourself? You were given this body and this life. How did you care for it?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:26:24

Yeah. It's almost respect, isn't it?

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:26:26

Yeah.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:26:26

Did you respect.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:26:27

You totally didn't.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:26:28

You didn't. Well, you're not coming here next.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:26:33

Yes.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:26:34

But we do mistreat our bodies, including our minds.

Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:26:38

Oh, absolutely. So I love that that lady said that because it is true. You can do that for yourself.

You don't need someone else to tell you you've got lovely hair and lovely eyes. Tell yours to look in the mirror and say, I really have pretty eyes and pretty hair. I'm gonna take that into the world today and rock it.

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Counselor Barb Rogers: 00:27:12

Whoever came up with the idea that it's selfish to look after yourself? Going back to standing at the pearly gates and being asked, what did you do for yourself in this body and this earth, in this lifetime?

It's like we're actually better people when we look after ourselves. If I'm exercised and I've had a good night's sleep and I'm eating well and I'm, you know, I'm looking after my health in other ways.

I'm going to go out into the world and be a better human being. I'm going to be a better citizen of the world. When I'm feeling good about myself, if I'm Tired and grouchy and resentful and angry.

I am not going to be a good citizen of the world. So that is something that we learn, that it's selfish. And of course the big example is when you're on the airplane and the oxygen masks come out.

You put it on yourself first. Because you cannot help someone else if you can't help yourself. If you can't breathe, you're not going to be able to help someone else.

The idea being that looking after ourselves is not selfish. It actually makes us better people. Better parents, better spouses, better friends.

We're better people when we look after ourselves and we feel good about ourselves and we exercise self compassion. We are nicer people to be around.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:28:43

Life is full of suffering. That's not a punishment, it's just part of the deal.

Whoever told us it was supposed to be easy, you know what they forgot to mention the growing part.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:28:55

But what we can choose, what we do have power over, is how to show up in our bodies, in our breath, in our relationships, and in how we respond to the world around us.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:29:08

It starts quietly inside. It starts when we take off the cloak of guilt and shame. And when we meet ourselves with the same kindness we wish the world would give us.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:29:20

You lead with compassion. You make space for others. You become part of the antidote.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:29:27

You know, the truth is, we can't always fix what's broken in the world. But we can bring more kindness to it. One breath, one conversation, one choice at a time.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:29:40

And maybe that's enough to start the ripple. Maybe that's how we upgrade the world.

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