The Art of Persuasion: Lessons from a Lifetime of Legal Storytelling

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:00:00

Your voice is your superpower. Use it. Welcome to Ignite My Voice Becoming unstoppable. Powered by Ignite Voice Inc. The podcast where voice meets purpose and stories ignite change.

Deep conversations with amazing guests, storytellers, speakers and change makers.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:00:20

So you want them already thinking the end result, even if it's the first day of a multi month trial.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:00:28

So what happens when a shy student is thrown into the school? First in law school, then in front of judges and juries?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:36

Wayne Murdoch knows. He's a retired prosecutor, a lawyer who faced fear head on.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:00:43

From tense moments during a coup in Fiji.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:45

...to the pressures of high stakes trials.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:00:49

And along the way, Wayne discovered the secret to transforming nerves into presence.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:00:55

Yeah. In this conversation, Wayne reveals why performance is everything.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:00:58

...why vulnerability matters. Enjoy our chat with Wayne Murdoch.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:01:04

I think through high school, junior and senior high school, I think most people wouldn't have thought me as being that outgoing. I wasn't particularly outgoing. I don't think.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:01:15

...that's a theme ee seem to have in our guests. A lot of outgoing introverts, they don't recognize their skills. Interesting.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:01:24

Yeah. When you look back, you know, at the time, you don't realize what's going on or where you're going even, probably.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:01:32

So what was your way in then, if you didn't see yourself as.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:01:37

Well? I think once I got to law school.

Well, sorry, even before that at SFU during my undergrad, I had a close friend who I met there and he sort of encouraged me along. He got quite involved in the student politics. So I was on student society council and on the senate or board as a student rep briefly and so on.

So that was interesting because you are presenting or responding to presentations and so on, although in a more formal setting mostly and speaking to crowds of students and that sort of thing. So I think that probably moved me along as well.

And then in law school again, probably still to this day, most law schools use the old Socratic method in first year at least. And so you know you're being picked out of the crowd and stand and give your response from the reading overnight or whatever, and the pressure's on.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:02:40

Mr. Murdoch, what do you think of that? You're gonna stand up quivering if you're.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:02:44

Cut off and somebody else has asked?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:02:46

Well, you survived.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:02:47

Yeah. And then during that time, I was sort of more and more interest and became involved more in narrowing my field into criminal law.

And criminal law generally means trial work, which means courts. And fortunately I had this excellent Prof. He was an ex London, like Scotland Yard, chief inspector, detective, and he was a huge guy.

Like he was six' six or something, and really outgoing kind of guy. And great as an instructor if you weren't terrified of him. But he was a great guy and we became good friends.

Anyway, one of the things he did in the advanced class is he set up a bunch of fake trials, but they're way more realistic than I've seen anywhere else in all the years he worked with the RCMP drug squad and their excise tax squad and so on in Toronto. RCMP do federal policing everywhere in the country.

And so together, their instructors and he would set up scenarios and they would make fake exhibits and they'd use real exhibit flowcharts and real witness notebooks for the trainee cops to use. And they're very realistically done. So it wasn't a script you were given. You were.

So as the prosecutor, the police would have to give you their report just like real, and you'd tell them what you see as missing in terms of evidence or that sort of thing. And so if you were appointed as defense, you'd get that, the disclosure from the Crown and so on.

And then the actual trials would be videoed and he'd be the judge. And so there'd be several police and several lawyers, at least two anyway, I think probably two on each side.

And that's when I first learned by the playback that my voice was terrible.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:05:06

Oh, that's good.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:05:08

Did you learn that or did you just think that?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:05:11

Well, that's right. Because I later learned that you sound a lot different to yourself than you do to others.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:05:18

Most people are very critical of their own voice, including us, you know.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:05:24

So I found that my first of all, I was doing the usual, doing oohs and ahs too often, which is common in speech voice, not modulating enough. And I just didn't like the sound of my voice. I thought, how do I carry on now? Now I'm stuck.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:05:41

So what did you do about it?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:05:43

Well, I did learn, as you said, about the voice other people hear being different than the voice you hear because the voice of your hearing's gone through your head as opposed to through the air, as I understand it. And so I just tried to work on that.

And when I was doing court work, like very early on, I would try and consciously bring my voice tone down, try and modulate my voice. And I think I got better at it over time. I wouldn't say that I was ever.

That I ever thought I had a good courtroom voice, so to speak, but others said that.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:06:22

So you had awareness and it's interesting that Wayne's thinking performance right in that.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:06:28

Environment because, I mean, when you step in front of a judge, that's really intimidating.

And we know that fear and intimidation can cause you to not breathe, which then cuts you off from being able to have emotion or modulate your voice as you were talking, saying. So that whole process can really impact how you present your case to the judge.

Did you ever take any training through your school or was this just self taught?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:07:01

It was just working on myself.

But I think I also tried to concentrate early on and I got a lot better at this over the years, which was looking at the story that you're trying to get across to the judge, person to person or a jury in the case of a jury, even more important, and in quite a few jury cases, both civil and criminal.

And so I think by concentrating on the person to try to help them to understand what your story is that you're putting to them, it kind of removes all the other things that would distract you, namely your voice, your fear, your, the room, all the people sitting around watching and listening and that kind of thing. And so I think in my later years with mostly Supreme Court work and with juries, it made it a lot easier.

And I, I got to the point where I think most senior, very experienced barristers would say, you never lose some aspect of fear. You know, it's any performance. Yeah. But I, you know, to the extent that you can, it was hugely different.

Once you concentrated on the proper things and got some experience, it was more stable.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:08:32

When you're present and you're really thinking about the story, that takes the pressure off of you about how you sound, how you look, how, you know, you're really just in that moment. I have a funny story for you.

When I was at UVic, I was studying acting and the law school brought us in, US actors to their program and they had us act as clients.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:08:56

Right.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:08:56

So I had to do a couple of different scenarios and as a result, I was overly dramatic and broke down and crying and the poor lawyers.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:09:08

You dramatic.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:09:09

I know it's hard to believe. They just didn't know what to do with me.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:09:13

Good training for them.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:09:14

Yeah, it was great training for them.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:09:16

The students and you're killing the poor people. What's, what's interesting is Wayne's applying a lot of what, what we do with performers on camera or before a big crowd.

You know, you have to connect, you have to get a conduit to the one person you're trying to connect with. You have to put the focus on them, not on yourself. Because that gun on yourself brings up all kinds of pressure on yourself. Right?

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:09:52

Yeah.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:09:52

You have to create a story. It's all the very things that we do with training people for on camera. It's fascinating that you came to recognize that on your own.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:10:01

Well, I think I see the tie in with what you're doing more so now, having met you and so on, and see the similarities in areas of work that would otherwise, most people think are completely disparate. You know, they're not that different. No.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:10:20

Yeah, they're not different at all.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:10:22

When you were talking about focusing on the one person in the crowd in jury trials, especially when you're prosecuting, the person that you think is likely to be the holdout, that's the one you.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:10:36

Want to focus on. Right.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:10:37

You don't care if you've got 11 on your side, it's the 12th, or in a civil trial, the 8th. And being able to focus on them and what little you know about them, their kind of language.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:10:52

So you would tailor this story literally to that. That person's demographic, I guess. Right.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:10:58

To the extent you could initially with juries here. I mean, all you know is generally where they're from, like Burnaby or Surrey or wherever. He might have a street name but no address.

You know what the voters list describes them as, you know, which could be a businessman, which doesn't tell you too much. It could be a cashier, carpenter, housewife.

So there are sort of broad terms, but at least to give you some ideas, if you're prosecuting, you probably want people that are in the financial kind of fields, like bankers and things, or cashiers even, because they're used to not wanting thieves around. If you're defending, it's the opposite.

So you have a little bit of information, and to the extent that you get an idea of who you need to be talking to, that's who you need to be talking to. Without putting them on the spot, obviously, without being obvious about it.

But with judges, I think I was able to be calm reasonably quickly and just realize these are just people.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:12:08

And they're actually there to help. So if you have that perspective, then you're collaborating.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:12:15

Yeah. Their job is to make a decision. Too many of them can't make decisions. They shouldn't be. Judges, should be mediators or arbitrators.

Well, mediators, not arbitrators. And so you're there to try and help them make their decision and make it in the right way, maybe even word it the right Way boy, story.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:12:37

Plays such a big role in all that. I see that now.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:12:40

It really does.

Did you ever have a time where you were presenting a story or a case and you made a mistake and you realize that you made a mistake and all of a sudden you had that jolt. Oh, now what do I do? Did you have that recrimination in your head?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:12:57

It's gonna happen. And. Yeah. And I think the key. Well, it depends on. It's hard to respond without a specific. I guess when you correct it is the big thing.

Of course, you don't want to interrupt an important thing by correcting some little matter and sort of lose the whole train. Some things you're probably better off just to let go as an error that probably no one noticed and probably nothing will come up.

And if it did, it's not important enough to make any difference in the big picture anyway. Other things, you got to correct them right away.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:13:31

Well, the pressure that you would have in that role that we wouldn't generally on camera or. Or on stage is you have a. Somebody watching you who is criticizing in their mind everything you're doing.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:13:46

Looking for holes. Right.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:13:48

Live, like as you go. You got somebody just trying to tear your story argument apart. That's a whole extra pressure when you're performing.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:13:57

Yeah, again. Or you don't think about that. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's going to be destructive. If you're thinking of that when you're trying to.

Then you're going to be interrupting your own story and you can't concentrate on.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:14:09

What it is you're saying.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:14:10

That's right.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:14:11

But that the debate skill that you have must have really helped formulate your story and the ability to speak that truth.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:14:23

I think that in the legal context, there are generally certain things you have to prove or disprove, and so you got to weave them into the story. Now, the story is most obvious in openings.

So at the opening of a trial, you get to lay out the story, which is sometimes described as the skeleton that you're then going to lead evidence, the flesh to put on the skeleton kind of thing. So to have a convincing story that'll win in the end.

I always, or at least later in my practice, had the habit of forming the story as early as possible in the office and then using that story repeated.

So right from the beginning, when you're filing court papers, the claim or the defense, I would generally like to put more into it than is required because the judge is going to read that before the trial starts.

They're going to sit in their office and read the pleadings, the court filings, and you want them to have got your story already, or at least the outline of it, so that you're going to read that out or speak it. And ideally not read it, but speak it.

And so you want them already thinking the end result, even if it's the first day of a multi month trial and then get your opportunities to repeat that along the way. When and where you can make it stick. Sometimes in arguments over evidence admissibility, you can put some of that in.

It's important because you know this part and that part or with some witnesses, you're sort of weaving that into the story. So that way the story kept getting reinforced and reinforced and reinforced.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:16:14

What's interesting is if you're the prosecutor, you have a defense person who is trying to battle your story with their story, it becomes two competing stories, doesn't it? And you want your stories to prevail in the mind of the judge.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:16:34

One of the tourism big conventions they do annually there I was at it and there was rumors that this colonel might be coming around and there was rumors that he might be going to do a coup.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:16:47

Oh no.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:16:48

So anyway, I get to meet him at this thing. In fact I have a photo taken of him and I sort of shoulder to shoulder in his big uniform.

He's a huge guy, you know, six' six or something and broad shouldered and big smile on his face with his arm around my shoulder. And then within a month or something he pulls this military coup. And so this goes on for a while and tourism dies, of course.

And finally it gets to the point where people are sort of saying, well, maybe we better try it out again. So I as the white Canadian get sent down as the guy least likely to be arrested.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:17:28

Nice.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:17:30

So in my case, I taped that photo.

I was thinking ahead because we had heard that there were plainclothes military guys searching everybody's luggage and just being kind of surly to people arriving. So I'm waiting for it. So sure enough, guy tells me to put my suitcase on the table and I do.

And he opens it up and he jumps back when he sees the photo. Slams, it shuts. He lifts it down off the table and says, follow me sir, do you want a cab? Do you want to.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:18:02

Can I get you a beer?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:18:04

Oh, it's quite funny.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:18:05

Oh my goodness. Well, you're smart.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:18:07

Yeah, I don't would have thought of doing that.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:18:09

No, just kidding. It's interesting what you said. I like what you said. Instead of reading the story, you're speaking the story, you're sharing the story.

That's one to one communication. That's making the connection to the judge and the jury so they really hear what you have to say. It's not just a cold script.

You're embodying feelings and words that resonate.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:18:41

That's right.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:18:42

That's important.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:18:42

Yeah.

And even more so at the end when you're doing your summation to the judge or to the jury to try and keep it short enough and clear enough and with simple language so that people again are going to remember it. They're going to remember what are logically the important points and logically aren't.

And then if you're prosecuting, the defense is probably going to pick at the things that actually in the end aren't going to make much difference anyway if they're not thinking their game through properly. Wow.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:19:20

Performance is enormously important in that environment. Really. I think I fully realize that. Then I would have the question. You built up that skill and were obviously quite good at it.

You must have encountered lawyers along the way who didn't have that skill down, huh?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:19:39

Yeah. Most of them avoid courtrooms like the plague. Wow. There's sort of a.

Seems to be a natural division of people as you get near the end of law school or you start your articling process. Half gravitate to paperwork and half gravitate to people work, that sort of thing. Yeah, there's just a natural thing. It's funny.

And I had a partner who was a fantastic guy. He's probably the best MC for events, really, in my whole life.

I mean, to this day, he's retired, but he's just got an incredible way he can weave jokes into presentations and so on. He's really, really good in public. He was terrified in a courtroom. Never did any trials.

Like from about his first time he was in a courtroom, he just. Yeah.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:20:29

What is that?

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:20:29

Yeah. I wonder where does that come from? Did you ever think about what caused that?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:20:34

He's quite shy by nature, but interestingly is a very gregarious guy once he's comfortable with the situation. And he is now with weddings and funerals and you name it, you know, even if there are people that he doesn't know that well, he just.

He does a fantastic job.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:20:53

Just seems to be a common theme among other guests that we've had where people are introverts but gregarious in other situations. And yet they can. It can flip that role.

We're here to help people, you know, tune into whatever is blocking them to help unfold their voice so they can make an impact in whatever capacity they are in speaking. And it's so interesting talking to you because as Kevin said, wow.

I mean, performance is just so important in so many aspects, and we don't give it enough credit, and we take it for granted. Sometimes those of us who can do it and those of us who can't are so afraid of it.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:21:34

I think most lawyers wouldn't think of it as performance. They just. If you talk to them in those terms, they'd get it.

But if you refer to somebody performing, that's a sort of pejorative description, like it's fake or false, phony, what they're doing, so they wouldn't think of it in that term.

One of the interesting experiences for me was that having done trial work for decades, at that point in my life, when I spoke at my daughter's wedding, I was just useless.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:09

You're a mess, really.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:22:11

And my wife, who is very quiet, doesn't want anything to do with any kind of public speaking at all. Came across very, very well. Wow. I guess the way motion sits you. I don't know.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:23

Yeah.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:22:24

In a different environment.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:26

Yeah. You were used to the raw environment, and then suddenly real core emotions were bubbling with your daughter.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:22:35

Right. Even by the time the second wedding, when my son got married a couple years later, it was still the same. Maybe not quite as bad, but.

Yeah, still the same. I prepared for it, having had that experience the first time around.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:48

But, you know, that makes me think about vulnerability.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:22:51

I was just gonna say that.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:22:52

It makes me think about. Well, you know, Brene Brown says, you know, you put the armor on.

It's almost like you were able to figure out a little bit of a facade in a courtroom where you're really comfortable and you could own that space. But then in the wedding, you know, the mask comes off and the real Wayne, the real core, gets exposed. You're not used to that, I guess, right?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:23:18

Yeah. Just so you know, speaking depends a lot on the context of the situation.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:23:25

Well, and that brings up something else that I argue in my book, and that's that shyness is situational. I don't know that anybody is born absolutely shy.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:23:36

Yes.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:23:36

You know, it's one environment you're not comfortable in that you appear really shy. And then we tend to label people they're shy because of that one moment.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:23:47

And you label yourself, and you carry.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:23:48

That through life, which is sad.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:23:52

Yeah. As you say, shyness is. You're not born with it. Somehow. Something happens in our lives Maybe shame. We wear the cloak of shame.

We don't think that we have the right to speak or can speak or any good at it, but we do it all the time, every day. We're doing it right now. We're just.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:24:10

Well.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:24:11

And some trauma moment gets stuck in the brain, probably like your partner.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:24:18

Something.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:24:18

May have happened in a courtroom early on or in his education where he felt really beat up and shamed. And that line gets written in your personal narrative, that shame.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:24:27

Right.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:24:27

See, I feel sorry for those poor lawyers that I met back in you.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:24:31

Embedded shame in all those student lawyers. They could not go in a courtroom from then on.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:24:36

Okay. I have to atone, actually.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:24:39

I have a older than me retired barrister friend in Toronto who in his retirement was doing what you described earlier. The College of Physicians and Surgeons hired him and some others as actors for trainee doctors. And so he'd. He'd actually.

And he'd done quite a bit of personal injury work.

And he's a very smart guy and very funny guy anyway, so he would play the role of a patient with some symptoms and like some kind of an illness or whatever. And a person doing their exams to become a medical doctor would have to diagnose him. Oh, wow.

And so he had some degree of script, of course, and, you know, he'd research thoroughly himself because the kind of guy he was all about whatever the disorder was or whatever. Oh.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:25:35

And then he could play.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:25:36

Right.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:25:36

To act that out to the map.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:25:38

So much fun. So.

So I guess his courtroom work over the years, he realized, well, there's acting partly involved in it, and this would be fun to do in my retirement.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:25:49

You're right, though, that people tend to hold this perspective of acting or performance.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:25:54

Yes.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:25:55

But really how we frame it is. It's simply how you present yourself to the world. And there can be a whole lot of authenticity in that. Not faking. Right.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:26:07

And that's something we want to help others capture their own authenticity. Because when you're authentic, you can really speak the truth.

When you believe in what it is that you're saying for yourself as a lawyer, you're really believing the facts that you're presenting. You're presenting that truth.

When you're in front of other people and you don't know them or you do know them, and you're at risk of vulnerability, you can still remove that mask and be authentic.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:26:35

Some of the.

In courtroom work, some of your presentations and even cross examinations and everything, you're using fake emotions in one sense, but not in a bad sense. You don't want to get emotional. You're doing a job, and it's to convince somebody of some facts, generally speaking.

But you're putting the victim, for example's, emotions into part of it, and that's legitimate because that's part of the story. It's not your emotion or my emotion in that situation.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:27:16

You're representing that emotion.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:27:18

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's if it was really analyzed. That's kind of fake in one sense, but it's a legitimate way to use.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:27

Well, and I suspect the best lawyers pull from within themselves the emotion that's necessary. So it's not faking.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:27:35

Sure.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:35

They're just trying to line up with the emotion that's required and then pull it from within. That's real. Right. And I mean, that's the classic acting as well.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:27:43

It's an expression of an emotion, and we all have it.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:47

As a good actor, you have to do the same thing. You don't fake it.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:27:49

Right.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:27:50

You find the real emotion within you.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:28:00

I think that's great to be doing that. And everyone should be thinking about what they can be doing in their way towards that goal.

And I think that part of that is drawing or encouraging people to draw away from the constant noise of just on and on and on, that so many people get so depressed, understandably.

And instead to, yeah, keep informed, but concentrate on the positives that you and those around you can accomplish, even if it's just in your little world, so to speak, because it'll reverberate out, but something that will somehow counteract all the roaring noise of all the negativeness and stop obsessing with the bullies. Because in a sense, to the extent that you are listening to or thinking of bullies all the time, that makes them an even bigger bully.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:29:02

It empowers them.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:29:03

You're right.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:29:04

What you're saying is we have a choice to tune in or tune out, and we have control over that. So we can tune out the noise but contribute to the positive.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:29:15

Interesting. Wayne kind of brought up your ripple effect too, right?

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:29:18

Yeah. Yep.

What you put out there comes back and you extend that, and you know, you have a positive interaction, then that makes that person that they're happy. They go out and have a positive interaction, and it goes out. And it can be simple.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:29:33

Yeah, because social media of whatever sort just moves things so much faster and makes bigger ripples, and we can all become a part of it without intending to by magnifying negative messages, basically. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon and sort of agree with this and agree with that, which really, there are probably things better left on set.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:09

It's awareness, but it's nice because awareness.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:30:12

Is a good choice.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:13

A lot of times, I think a lot of people feel it's completely out of their control. There's nothing I can do. I can't have any impact. But what you're talking about is those simple, small decisions you make in your own life.

We can make the right ones together and really counter some of this, huh?

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:30:30

Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:31

We have some control.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:30:33

We believe we can and why we're here.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:30:35

Good.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:36

We're gonna do our part.

Guest Wayne Murdoch: 00:30:38

Yeah. No, that's great.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:39

Wayne reframes fear not as something to erase.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:30:43

...but as something that pulls you into presence. Performance isn't fake.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:48

It's focusing on the story and the person who needs to hear it.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:30:52

When we shift the focus off ourselves.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:55

Then fear loses its grip.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:30:57

And that's true in the courtroom and.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:30:59

It'S true in life.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:31:00

The ripple effect is real.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:31:02

What we put into the world comes back.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:31:05

Choose presence.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:31:06

Choose courage.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:31:07

Visit ignite myvoice.com to ignite your voice. Work with one of our talent developmenter coaches trained in the home holistic ignite method.

Co-host Kevin Ribble: 00:31:17

We'd love to work with you. Change your voice. Change your life.

Co-host Kat Stewart: 00:31:24

Ignite my voice. Becoming unstoppable. Your voice is your superpower. Use it.